A Gambling Man

Who are these white moderates that you speak of? (0.00 / 0)

Are there no black moderates or hispanic moderates, or are those racial groups out of reach for Davis?  On what basis do you say white moderates support "candidates who share their self interest ... regardless of race or gender"?  You've mentioned this group several times recently and I'd like to understand who you're talking about.

Can you share your calculations that say Davis must win 30% of the AA vote in the Democratic primary in order to win?  That sounds like a very low bar, especially since he's very popular in his district, based on past election results.

I'm frankly offended that you direct your list of questions only to white people -- you of all people should know how offensive it is to group people only by race -- but in the spirit of honest discussion I will answer:  Yes to all of your questions, with the proviso that I am certainly not locking in my vote 7+ months ahead of the election.  But none of these things would cause me not to vote for Davis.

 

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 10:50:20 AM CST

Actually I'm basing all of my calucations and assertions (0.00 / 0)

On not one but many discussions we've had at LiA concerning Artur Davis, white moderates and African American voters.  I'm sorry if my directing the question to "white moderates" offended you, but to be fair I don't know of any discussion we've  had regarding moderate blacks or hispanics as a voting block.

 The moderate whites voters (0.00 / 0)

Are the white Independent voters who can be swayed either way by just one issue.  They hesitate on everything that isn't familiar to them because of their conservative leanings and will vote against their own economic interests if an opponent can entice them to with the proper campaigning strategy.  From what I know about the Davis gubernatorial campaign those are the voters he is trying to woo because they are mostly in North and Southeast Alabama...  

 

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 11:56:23 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Working Links, I hope (0.00 / 0)

http://leftinalabama.com/diary/4965/alabama-blue-dogs-take-note-two-of-your-pack-now-support-the-public-option

http://www.leftinalabama.com/diary/4971/richard-arrington-endorses-ron-sparks-with-video

http://leftinalabama.com/diary/3410/

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 12:02:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Testing (0.00 / 0)

http://leftinalabama.com/diary...

http://leftinalabama.com/diary...

http://leftinalabama.com/diary...

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 12:12:20 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Does that mean you aren't going to just tell me ... (0.00 / 0)

The percentage of AA voters you're using for the primary and the percentage of non-AA voters you think Davis will get?

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 12:10:33 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'm sorry, (0.00 / 0)

I didn't know that was the question.  I was trying to respond to his question;

Can you share your calculations that say Davis must win 30% of the AA vote in the Democratic primary in order to win?   

*My calculations are based on calulations here at LiA.

I have no idea the percentage of African American votes, if any, Davis will get in the primary.  As I've stated several times before there are four camps, the undecided, the stay at homes and the vote for him because he's black group and the vote against him camp.  I can only speculate which camp is the largest, but after his vote against health care reform I'd say the vote against him camp is getting larger.  Davis may have been popular in last elections, but that before he ripped his drawers with a lot of voters in his district.

 

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 12:25:56 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Maybe it's the engineer in me ... (0.00 / 0)

But when I see "calculations" it sounds like actual numbers are involved.  Otherwise it's an estimate, a guesstimate or even a wild assed guess.  Just trying to figure out where your 30% falls on that scale.

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 13:03:01 PM CST

[ Parent ]

A couple of points Redeye (0.00 / 0)

Moderate is a political position and/or philosophy. It is not a color nor is it a race nor a nationality nor a gender. What is the difference to you between a white moderate and a black moderate or a hispanic moderate or any other type of moderate? Moderates come in all colors, races, genders and nationalities. Davis and any other candidate for governor must secure some moderate voters to win. Thats a fact and all the wishful thinking in the world upon your part does not change that fact.

Second point - one thing I find truly noble about the overwhelming majority of the posters on this blog is that they truly desire a society in which one's race is a non issue, a society that is truly color blind. Unfortunately there are some posters who insist on interjecting race into virtually every post they make, then have the nerve to complain that race is an issue in our society. It is an issue because there are still too many people who see everything through the narrow prism of race and race alone.

Note that 4 of your 6 questions deal not with the issue of whether Davis is the best man for the job, but rather with his race.

For the record, the election is still too far away for me to decide who to support, but the only issue that any potential voter should consider is which candidate is the best leader for this state for the next 4-8 years. 

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 13:40:10 PM CST

Enough, You don't support Davis for Governor. OK!!!!!! (4.00 / 1)

What's new, you have attempted to find an excuse to pick someone other than Davis for 2010 for months.  Support Sparks already and get over it.  You and Sparky's other political neophytes continue to harp on if Davis is electable etc.  Leave the prognosticating to the adults.  It is guaranteed that Sparks would be crushed in 2010 regardless of the Repug on the other side.  For the following reasons:

1. He is not smart or mentally keen

2. He knows nothing of the issues he discusses

3. He is like the wind, one direction one day and another the next

4. Sorry, but almost no one cares about what he does with the Agriculture Department

5. Sparks has the excitment of white bread both ideologically and personally.  He inspires nothing

You see, your posts easily indicate who you would support for Gov.  That would be some fringe, left of left candidate that will NEVER garner enough support to win.  You think Sparky is your man????  You continue to blab about 3-4 votes that you disagree with Davis on and blindly egnore the 1,000's of other votes he has made over 7 years. Do reasearch please!!

News flash, the final healthcare bill is being developed as we speak so get over the vote.  Your simplistic veiw of the vote shows a complete lack of sophistication.  I spoke to a resident of Selma that didn't agree with vote.  She doesn't have insurance and was hurt by Davis' vote.  I explained to her some of the rationales I got from his statement and although she was still concerned SHE understood his position and was glad at least he understood what he was doing.  I wished you had the same insight that this amazing woman and others like her have.  This is a generational vote that has to be right the first time.  so stop wating everyone's time with rants and raves that amount to nothing.  READ the BILL.

Where were you when Davis and his team help form the Black Belt action commission that for the first time made the area a priority for the State of Alabama.  I remember seeing articles on that initiative and how there is still an ongoing effort to improve the lives of CD 7 residents.  It easy for you to sit back in an amatuer way and lob verbal grenades.  As for the links to people that don't even live in Alabama, who cares what they say.  Come down here and get something done first!

You seem to think progressives aka liberals are this monolithic group that walk in herds like a bunch of lemmings.  Wake up, grow up, put on big boy pants and look at the real world.  Maybe you take the name "Redeye" because you are crying all the time and not doing anything.  You certainly are not providing any real information. 

Davis is not perfect, no member of Congress has ever been perfect.  I have an idea, why don't YOU run for Congress and lets discuss your exit poll numbers afterwards.  Just as I thought, that would take courage and leadership.

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by: Takenoprisoners @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 14:11:24 PM CST

Enough is right Takenoprisoners. (0.00 / 0)

Not once have I issued a personal attack like this to you or any other ardent Davis supporter.

Wake up, grow up, put on big boy pants and look at the real world.  Maybe you take the name "Redeye" because you are crying all the time and not doing anything.  You certainly are not providing any real information. 

 Or this;

so stop wating everyone's time with rants and raves that amount to nothing.  READ the BILL.

Or this;

I have an idea, why don't YOU run for Congress and lets discuss your exit poll numbers afterwards.  Just as I thought, that would take courage and leadership. 

 

I don't know why you have to bash me in order to support Davis but I've had enough.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 17:28:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Totally Missed It (4.00 / 1)

My statements are not a mere bashing of you, they are direct challenges to assertions that are not factual.  It is very fair to question Davis' or any other candidate's position on issues.  Just refrain from vainly attempting to sway the perceptions and opinions of others because you are trying to justify YOUR opposition.  You are very snide in your remarks regarding Davis and it is tiresome.  You are not convincing anyone to change their opions of this candidate.

 On another note, Davis and his team are more than adequate to speak to his own record and really have the communication thing down solid.  I do support Davis because we have a similar view on SOME issues not all.  That is the great thing about politics, you find common ground and wortk through the rest.  You constantly threaten to stay home etc on election day.  Fine, if that is your definition of Civics than have at it.  That is your right but you have no voice and no elected official should care what you have to say by "abstaining".  Sometimes unfortunately you have to vote for the candidate closest to your position even if he is not "pure" ideologically. 

 Lastly, I have never and I repeat never heard Davis or his camp spend one second focused on his being an African American.  That is the simplistic world of the modern media.  Your questions shold have included, " Would you vote for an educated, experienced, reasoned individual that is thoughtful in both political philosophy and practical application in solving current statewide issues regardless of race or gender?".  Instead you ask about the obvious regarding race. 

 

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by: Takenoprisoners @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 19:51:36 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Sparks (0.00 / 0)

Sparks would beat Moore in a route

Sparks would beat James by 5-10 points

 Sparks and Byrne would be a very close election that would turn out similar to Folsom 2006.

 And I think you underestimate how many regular Joe Alabamians will vote for a regular Joe Alabamian above the "more educated candidate with better ideas". It happened in 1986 and if any year is ripe for it to happen again it would be 2010

 And saying that Sparks is not smart just because he lacks a 4 year degree is a dangerous move to make. Especially when he is childhood friends with the most popular musical group in Alabama history, when he actually worked his way up, and because every time an Alabama politician has pulled that card it fails miserable (For reference see Bill Baxley 1986)

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by: jacool @ Sun Nov 15, 2009 at 00:39:02 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Some thoughts (4.00 / 1)

I'm also going to offer a few points in response.

1)  Based on reading your previous comments Redeye, especially over the past few days,  the quality it seems by which you judge candidates is purity.  Purity to the definition of a liberal that you put forward in your posts.  The problem is, there are very few candidates who would meet that mark of purity (especially those that might have a chance to win in certain districts).  That is where it will take work on the ground to change the mindset of people, and running candidates who alienate voters might not be the best tact.

2)  Based upon the questions you raise in this post, you offer no point that would make me change my support.  Yes, it could very well change the way people look at Alabama if we elect an African-American as governor.  However, that is not the reason why one should support Davis.  One should support him because they believe in his vision for the state.

3)  Now I am going to be a little more explicit than some of the other commenters on supporting Davis.  At this moment I would say that yes, I am supporting Artur Davis for governor.  Why?  Because at this moment of the state's history, Artur Davis offers the best chance for our state to move forward.   He recognizes that the issues that ail the state are systemic in nature, and that we must address the injust systems that harm people and hold our state back before we are able to move forward.  That means addressing the core of almost all the issues in state government--our state constitution. Two of the main reasons why education funding is affected every time we hit an economic downturn are the way we set budgets and the way that we raise revenue.  Having a tax code embedded in this document makes it incredibly difficult to raise the necessary revenues (unless we decide to put more on the backs of the poorest citizens of the state--and you have likely seen the recent news that Alabama taxes its poorest citiznes the most of any state in the nation).  We have a number of innovative programs in education, but we must do more in not only funding education but asking for more accountability in the results, and be willing to try innovative methods to succeed.  Economic development--local communities and the state need to have the opportunity to address infrastrucure issues that prevent them from bringing in new jobs and supporting new businesses. Yet the 1901 Constitution prohibited "internal improvements", affecting the ability of local communities and the state to build necessary roads.  One of the infrastructure issues that affects Birmingham is public transportation--again affected by the constitution.   These are just some of the issues that the state faces based upon the 1901 Constitution that we need to reform, issues that will have an impact upon all citizens of the state.

This election will be decided upon issues important to the state of Alabama.   Who is the best suited to lead Alabama forward and address the needs of this state?  That is a question we need to ask as we select candidates.

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by: csduke @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 14:31:55 PM CST

I guess it depends on what the definition of "purity" is csduke. (0.00 / 0)

If expecting candidates to uphold and adhere to the party platform and to represent the interest of their constitutents is purity then I guess I do expect purity.  I certainly don't expect pandering.  Especially pandering to those who don't share my political viewpoint and who are against the things I stand for.

I wasn't trying to offer you any points that would make you change your mind, I'm simply trying to understand why in order for Davis to get the support of white moderates he has to pander to them at the expense of his base.  You want Alabama's image to change.  I want the substance of Alabama's image to change.  Just because Alabama won't mean a thing to black folks if their interest continued to be ignored and pushed to the back burner.  Davis as Governor  will make Alabama look good, but will he make Alabama be good?  I have my doubts.

I agree with everything you say about the need for a new constitution, but I believe either Democratic candidate can and will push for a new constitution.

Thank you for your response.  I hope we can continue to have a respectful and civil dialogue on this issue.

PS, speaking of purity, Davis said he voted against the health care bill because it wasn't perfect, remember?  So maybe he's the one that expects purity.  :)

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 17:43:25 PM CST

[ Parent ]

On another note, Thanks Ron (0.00 / 0)

This is in regards to an email from the Sparks Campaign:

Mr. Sparks, the Nation honors you as a Veteran that has sacrificed for this country.  However, as a candidate I am disgusted with your campaign for using such an esteemed day to spew political vitriol. Yes, everyone received your tacky campaign piece that you sent on Veterans Day.  A salute to Veterans would have been much more appropriate.

Have a safe and reflective Veterans Day everyone (See how its done Ron?).

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by: business4usual @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 15:51:37 PM CST

business4usual, (0.00 / 0)

Would you please do me a favor and start your own thread to communicate messages to Ron Sparks?

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 17:44:45 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Emails from the campaigns ... (0.00 / 0)

For those who aren't on their lists, here are the only two messages I received from the Democratic gubernatorial campaigns today.

First, the one from Artur Davis which arrived at 12:04 pm:

Dear XXXX,

I wanted to take a moment this Veterans Day to ask each of you to pray for the men and women who have worn our country's uniform. I hope that you will remember President Obama's stirring reminder yesterday that we don't have to look far to find greatness -- we can find it in the sacrifice and the valor of our service men and women.

From Fort Hood to Fallujah to the hills of Afghanistan, may God Bless this new generation of heroes who wear our country's values so well.

Sincerely,



Artur Davis 

Then this one from Justin Saia, Sparks 2010 Campaign Manager, which arrived at 2:28 pm:

Dear XXXX,

Even though Artur Davis has focused the majority of his time and energy on raising money for his campaign at penthouse fundraisers in Washington, D.C. and New York City, Davis now finds himself far from being the darling of the New York press.  Today’s New York Observer reminds the rest of the country what we have known for a long time here in Alabama:  if we want a Democratic Governor, we can’t nominate Artur Davis.  

 

     

 ...In the House, he's broken with his party on key votes - including last Saturday's on health care reform - in an effort to make himself acceptable to the conservative-leaning Alabama electorate. 

 

Now, with G.O.P. governor Bob Riley facing a term limit, Davis is making his move.  But his campaign feels two or four years too late.  In '06 or '08, you could see Alabamans possibly taking a chance on a moderate-seeming Democrat in an open seat contest.  But with Obama in the White House, Democrats in control of the Congress, and unemployment at 10 percent? Davis' odds are long.  And he won't have a House seat to fall back on if he loses.

   

Source:

 

The New York Observer

 

November 11, 2009

       

 http://www.observer.com/2009/politics/democratic-calamity-club

Unlike Davis, Ron Sparks does not pander to Republicans and is a proven statewide election winner.

   

Let Ron know you appreciate his courage and stance on key issues by contributing today.

Personally, I think the first one is classier and more appropriate than the second by about a mile.

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 18:34:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]

New York Observer, Really???? (0.00 / 0)

Sparks and his merry band have crossed into desperation.  Where are the polls Ron, where is the proof that you have even a remote chance at all?  It is only a matter of time before Davis ends this thing once and for all and lowers the boom on Sparky.  I am not sure why he and his team continue to tolerate this sophomoric effort by Sparky.  There is nothing lost ending this early.

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by: Takenoprisoners @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 19:06:17 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Since you insist... (4.00 / 1)

At least Ron Sparks didn't vote against the interest of his consitutents in order to appeal to conservative voters.

...In the House, he's broken with his party on key votes - including last Saturday's on health care reform - in an effort to make himself acceptable to the conservative-leaning Alabama electorate. 

Tell us how you really feel about Davis's vote;

Now -Davis’ constituency is 71% black, a group disproportionally impacted by the lack of, and quality of health care in the United States – with an estimated 8,000 black children dying each year in their first year of life due to poor, substandard, or nonexistent health care resulting in mortality rates 2.5 times that of whites.

So i find it hard to understand under any circumstances, Davis’ so called “pricipled” stand.

Then there is The Ballard of Artur Davis

The bottom line : Davis is currently running for Governor of the State of Alabama and did not believe that he could justify a yes vote in his ambition for 2010.

Commentary from the peanut gallery regarding Davis' betrayal;

Artur Davis is not a progressive congressman, nor is he even a moderate. He measures his votes on appealing to the conservatives that he knows he must swing to win the governor’s race in Alabama. This is not the first vote that he has been on the wrong side of history on.
As far as the “cats” on Left in Alabama, they chose their candidate earlier this year, and as with other Democrats, it doesn’t matter whether they’re a “Blue Dog” conservative or a candidate with no convictions of his own, as long as he has a “D” after his name. Unfortunately, they’re hitching their trailer to a candidate that will insure at least four more years of republican leadership in Montgomery.
As far as Congress goes, Alabama will be better off if Artur Davis does give up his seat to run for governor. He represents a high density black population, progressive district, and his votes do not reflect the ideology of his constituents. If he leaves Congress, this district will not go republican, but it probably will go more progressive.

We need healthcare more than we need to elect you, Mr. Davis. I am a lifelong Democrat, but I will not support you if you don't support our president in this hugely important goal. I don't care if it isn't perfect...all I know is my mother would probably still be alive if she had healthcare available. Please change your mind.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 19:40:03 PM CST

[ Parent ]

I'd be more impressed and you would be more convincing (0.00 / 0)

... if you made your own arguments instead of quoting other people so much.  And some of those quotes are from commenters, which carry no weight at all out of the original context.

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 19:53:41 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Great Job (4.00 / 1)

You found some postings of people that disagree with Davis' vote.  unlike you, I am a resident of District 7 and like all my neighbors and the members of my social network, we support Davis and know what it takes to have a real alternative for Gov.  This is not about President Obama.  How rediculous to think a vote against this bill is a vote against Obama.  That sounds like Repug talk, simplistic and naive.

How do these posters know CD-7 is "progressive".  Where is the data?  Right it doesn't exist and the poster assumes that because there are a large numebr of African Americans in the district that they are all "progressives" or don't have insurance etc.  That is lazy.

Also just for clarification, even if every American recieved an insurance card tomorrow that does not gurantee access.  There is a shortage of physicians and nurses across this country that is not being resoved in the healthcare bill.  So in essence if you have no transportation, no money and no physicians nothing will change.  Lets talk about real solutions in addtion to a bill that may not accomplish all that is promised.

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by: Takenoprisoners @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 20:02:40 PM CST

[ Parent ]

That's hilarious (0.00 / 0)

Davis' district doesn't need health insurance because there aren't enough doctors anyway.

Next we won't be sending food stamps to poor neighborhoods because they have a shortage of supermarkets.

"When you talk about the law discriminating, the law granting a privilege here, and a right here and denying it there, that's a civil rights issue. And I can't take that away from anybody." - Rev. Joseph Lowery

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by: rudyinbama @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 20:54:49 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Interesting you mention that (0.00 / 0)

There is a shortage of supermarkets in poor areas.   Also a preponderance of unhealthy fast food outlets.  I'm covered up right now, so no link, but I think google will easily find it for you.

And the shortage of doctors in the Black Belt is also real -- haven't heard that it's addressed by HB 3962, but it needs to be. 

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 22:00:05 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Interestingly enough... (4.00 / 1)

The shortage of doctors, especially in primary care fields, is one of the issues that Parker Griffith has been pressing throughout this entire healthcare debate.  He points to not only the need for more physicians, but for medical schools as well.  (For example, he pointed to this in his statement regarding his recent vote).

BTW, takenoprisoners, the issue is not that they don't need health insurance because there aren't doctors.  The issue is that while health insurance is good, it does no good if you do not have adequate health care options in your community.   Take a look at the number of doctors in rural communities, especially in the Black Belt.  Also take a look at the number of hopsitals in some of these counties--I don't believe ther eis one in Perry County and there is not one in Lowdnes County. If we are seeking to expand coverage, this is an issue that needs to be addressed as well.

Another health care related topic (and I apologize for continuing this thread down this particular rabbit trail) comes from an article on the Daily Beast by Conor Friedersdorf (who writes for the Atlantic and formerly Huffington Post) on health care that is worth looking at.  His central argument is that the bill the House just passed has deep flaws, especially in not addressing the fact we have employer based insurance as well as the heavy insistance upon insurance for all--arguing that insurance is not the best way to deal with catastrophic care.  The final critique is the way the bill doesn't handle rising costs.  (This article is cited here by the Birmingham Progressive Examiner in regards to the Alabama delegation's vote).  

The question I raise will all of these things is this: did we focus so much on insurance, especially in the form of the public option, that we have neglected to look at other critical issues needed in addressing health care, especially in expanding coverage?

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by: csduke @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 23:15:19 PM CST

[ Parent ]

The answer is "yes." (0.00 / 0)

But if we didn’t want insurance-based health reform, we should have elected Kucinich instead of Obama.

"When you talk about the law discriminating, the law granting a privilege here, and a right here and denying it there, that's a civil rights issue. And I can't take that away from anybody." - Rev. Joseph Lowery

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by: rudyinbama @ Wed Nov 11, 2009 at 23:58:18 PM CST

[ Parent ]