Are White, Southern Men The Problem With Today's GOP?

Is answer found in Senator Jim Webb's book? (4.00 / 2)

Not that it's the only answer but Jim Webb's "Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish shaped America" might be worth mentioning as to white, southern men.  I also recall Mudcat Saunders and others who've written of how tepid, middle way approaches (the centrism that the very Michael Lind Professor Reich cites has long advocated) from all too many Democratic "leaders" turns off many voters.  I think this is especially so in our neck of the woods.

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by: Captain Plaid @ Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 15:16:01 PM UTC

Very possibly, but it would be nice to boil his thinking down a bit (4.00 / 1)

I've read Webb's book and I kept thinking it was all going to become clear ... but it never did.  While I now appreciate the history of the people who emigrated to the South, I still don't understand the source of this anger and intolerance which is so often celebrated here.  Obviously, I need a Cliff's Notes version.

Putting that aside, it's worth noting that Obama's approval rating among white men is on the rise, probably because it now appears that he is standing up to Congress and standing up for the middle class.  You are absolutely correct that the middle way, please everyone, never take a stand approach is a turn off to these voters, and I would argue that it turns off a lot of other voters, too.

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 16:03:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Cultures of Honor (4.00 / 2)

The writer Malcolm Gladwell has a very interesting section on "cultural legacies" in his book Outliers that deals with the very subject. It's specifically in the Legacies: Harlan, Kentucky chapter.

"This is not a Republican or a Democratic issue. This is about the whole system being against us." - an Occupy protester at Obama's Des Moines office.

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by: Dardango @ Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 22:47:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Remember the 1992 campaign (4.00 / 2)

After decades of soft sell Democratic campaigns - that LOST - we had James Carville who promised never to let any challenge go unanswered. No matter how small the issue, they popped back and they hit hard.

It was a feisty campaign that called the GOP on their craziness and skewered Bush I on a regular basis.  Remember the "debate chicken" that followed him from event to event?

The Democrats played offense in that campaign and they won. But too few Democrats follow their example.

One big problem with the ADP for years has been the lack of will to climb out of the bunker and engage the GOP. The message of voting Democratic "just because" or "because Candidate Tom here's a good old boy" was a loser.

I think Mark Kennedy understands that.  And I wish that every Democratic candidate would run more as Truman in 48 & Clinton in 92.

There are no "safe" Republican districts. You can run but you can't hide.  - Rahm Emmanuel

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by: countrycat @ Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 16:17:27 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Waiting on the thunder (4.00 / 2)

 President Obama has made it a policy of his to not accept money from oil companies. I'm hoping he will soon be explaining his stance to the voters over & over again. We need all Democrat candidates to adopt this policy. The clear line in the sand between right and wrong that this would show would make for one, powerful, offense.

 And the GOP, over & over again, keeps telling the lie that Obama had a super majority on the Hill for his first two years. When the truth is, it didn't even last 2 months. (Senator Ted Kennedy died 38 days after Senator Al Frankin was sworn in) 

 

 Most of the GOP is comprised of crazy white folks. But I don't know if it's best to be thinking in those terms. Case in point: The words and actions of Herman Cain.

The 2011 surface temperatures (World Temperature) was 0.51°C (0.92°F) above the 20th century average. This marks the 35th consecutive year, since 1976, that the yearly global temperature was above average. - N.O.A.A.

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by: Dragontide @ Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 20:59:09 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

As an Angry White Southern Man, I Wholeheartedly agree... (4.00 / 4)

Jim Webb showed the Dems how to win back angry white Southern man. Southern white men have a dang good reason to be angry - they face greater economic insecurity that most other groups, they lack the regulatory and union protections of their bretheren in northern states, but they are fiercely patriotic and individualistic. Obama briefly teased that he might actually engage in this group during the 2008 campaign with some of his advertising in NC and western Virginia, but from a policy perspective, it has come to naught. Southern white men are more than willing to embrace postive radical economic policies IF those policies are properly sold. Letting everybody buy into Medicare, for instance, would have been an exceptionally easy sell for people who are more likely than those in other regions of the country to have jobs without heath insurance.

Angry, southern white men tend to be fiercely protective of social security, veterans benefits, and public education. The problem is that their anger has been appropriated by Carpetbaggers who seek to claw away what little money the Southern white man has accumulated and the benefits that his forefathers earned. Obama has been too busy professorily informing us of how both sides must come together for the greater good to engage these people. Shit, the only time he could spare for us after our worst natural disaster ever was a super brief stop on the way to somewhere else. I will be voting for Obama because he is so much better than the alternative on every policy issue but from a political perspective, it is more than understandable why so many people who don't have the time to follow the issues closely will not vote for a person who conveys disinterest in them.

As former GOP consultant Mike Murphy said, Democrats campaign on issues, Republicans campaign on culture. I would add that Obama, to some degree, is advocating what needs to be done (investment in our future via government spending and a fairer tax system) but his tone is out of step with the sentiment of the country (people are ANGRY but Obama is tepid) whereas the GOP's ideas are all bad but people identify with their angry tone. 

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by: bluebearcat @ Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 16:46:56 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

this comment (4.00 / 2)

Is worth its own diary!

There are no "safe" Republican districts. You can run but you can't hide.  - Rahm Emmanuel

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by: countrycat @ Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 17:07:48 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

oh, and (4.00 / 1)

I posted it on our FB page.  This post was getting a lot of comments there & I thought your comment might spark more discussion.

If that's not ok, I'm happy to delete it!

There are no "safe" Republican districts. You can run but you can't hide.  - Rahm Emmanuel

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by: countrycat @ Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 17:11:54 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well said! (4.00 / 2)

And I agree with countrycat that this deserves its own diary.

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Thu Dec 22, 2011 at 18:29:19 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I'm going to speak on this as honestly as possible (4.00 / 1)

Yes, they are.  The reasons why is there have been forces at work in are innate with the media and Southern culture since the days of Reconstruction where the oligarchical elite have always addressed to this said demographic that the "others" are getting more than you.  This has been used since then as the "divide and conquer" approach that has worked successfully in Southern politics.  Dr. Wayne Flynt and many other Southern political and cultural scholars have expressed this is the reasons why unions have been limited or flat out failed to coalesce in the majority of the South.  

I've skimmed through Jim Webb's book about Southern white males, and yeah there are some valid points.  On the other hand, a lot of the issues that are afflicting this demographic is more self-afflicted than most groups.  This same group is for Social Security, VA benefits, and education, but at the same time many of them have left themselves wide open to turn against these same safeguards.  (I have to ask this question) why is that is one demographic group has done this to themselves while Southern blacks (which by far have higher rates of lower education attainment and high school dropout rates) have somehow alluded this self-deprecrating electoral fallacy?

Now as a socially egalitarian, black LGBT male whom was born and reared in the South, I can say this is a fact.  I grew up in a majority white environment, where I was almost always the only black male in present for over half of my life.  I have more a deeper understanding of the sensibilities of said group than persay the Joe Reeds, William Bells, Rodger Smithermans, whose sensibilities are common reflections of the diversity of idealogies/perspectives amongst most Southern black males because they have been in most black environs their entire lives. 

Yes, there should be more politicos whom attempt to appeal to the interests of Southern white males, but the problem with the Clinton '92 & Truman '48 approach is the clear and unbridled omission of the existence of sensibilities and issues of other groups (particularly blacks) for the benefit of Southern whites males. 

There are just as many if not more Southern non-whites whom are growing just as fed up with this bullshit that has been going on.  In large groups if not larger, these demographic groups suffer economically and physcially (health) than the former group.  There are many Southern blacks that could even get employment at a specific establishment even if they slept with the hiring manager (November 2011 unemployment amongst black males still at 16.5% compared to 7.6% with white males).  However, there seems to be the tone-deaf or aversion for some Southern white males to even understand there are those suffer much worse than themselves.  Instead, their anger has turn towards those whom could be their allies and has led to this ongoing battle of issues between these groups.  If anything black males should be furious about what has gone on with the way the South has treated them since post-Reconstruction where most of them don't even have a start being a productive member of society because everything institutionally is working against them from jump. 

Yeah, Republicans and social conservatives do campaign on culture, but (this is where the true honesty comes in) there is a mutual cultural understanding that comes when pretty much you are campaigning to mostly ethnically and culturally homogeneous group, i.e., white people.  Meanwhile, Democrats and social progressives can only campaign on issues because there heterogeneity and cultural diversity thus the only thing they can mutually reach said groups is on issues of interest that appeals to all their sensibilities. 

A true pluralist approach is the only suitable and fair resolution to this dilemma.  Last time I remember, President Obama as vastly engaged in executing said issues, but it is quite difficult to appease and satisfy the desires and interests of everyone when you are only one person with only 4 years to prove yourself worthy of reelecting.  This is all the while attempting to battle a recalcitrant Congress with members of both parties (including your own) rallying against you to ensure you fail on anything major to prove a point.  That point is a black person, especially a black man, should not be allowed lead anything, period. 

If that offended any, sorry, but that is the brutal and honest truth.  As a social egalitarian, I understand what Southern white men are anger about but much of this anger is misguided and is straight up resentment towards blacks and other non-whites because they let oligarchical white elites brainwash them into believe that bullshit.  At the end of day, we live in a day and age where if you are taught properly (even in high school education) you should be able discern when you are being fed constant bullshit.  

"Hypocrites are those whom pick and choose prejudices while giving accolades for their own..."

"It is what it is."  

http://blkindependent.blogspot...

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by: kayman @ Fri Dec 23, 2011 at 00:02:24 AM UTC

Limiting myself to a small part of kayman's comment:: (4.00 / 1)

we need to give Barack Obama another term and we need to give him a majority in both Houses.  Harry Reid needs to find the guts to "tweak" or eliminate the abomination called "filibuster" so that the nation's work can once again go forward in an orderly fashion.

On Facebook today, I made a comparison to an architect who is talented and competent, but is provided with lazy or incompetent contractors, foremen and workmen.  He can be made to look very bad by their efforts. Obama is a great architect with a beautiful image for the America he wants to build, but with Boehner and McConnell calling the shots, damn little will get done. BOUNCE THE BASTARDS!

"BOUNCE THE BASTARDS". Piggieheart

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by: piggieheart @ Fri Dec 23, 2011 at 00:19:10 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

I would argue that the ruling class in the South... (4.00 / 2)

designed a system to oppress not just blacks but the entire working class including working class whites. Blacks got it especially bad because of course it's a lot easier to oppress a divided people. I agree with your last statement, but the problem is that most people are not taught properly. Too many African-American males are not properly taught that the drug game is a dead end and too many Southern whites are not properly taught that racial resentment accomplishes nothing.

I do not agree at all that the needs of Southern whites and blacks are different. The number one need that both have above everything else is JOBS. Somebody needs to be talking about bringing jobs back to America. Instead, President Obama is signing bills to send more American jobs to South Korea. As I have said, I will vote for the president because he is the best choice out of the two. But if he had one iota of the populism of FDR or Truman, he'd be sitting on a 60% approval rating and coasting to re-election right now. Black men and Southern white men both want the same thing right now - jobs. Both would buy into a jobs program if only President Obama would try to sell them one. The man has never made any real effort to go after the Southern white vote because he has bought into the ridiculous lie that Southern white men are all racist therefore there is no point in going after them. Their racism ferments and grows in the absence of coutnervailing evidence. When Obama shows up and people hear him in person, it is much more difficult to consider him an alien thing out to destroy the country.

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by: bluebearcat @ Fri Dec 23, 2011 at 05:52:02 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Let me clarify some things (4.00 / 2)

"Hypocrites are those whom pick and choose prejudices while giving accolades for their own..."

"It is what it is."  

http://blkindependent.blogspot...

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by: kayman @ Fri Dec 23, 2011 at 08:29:30 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Two things: (4.00 / 1)

First, my point was that no sane black man makes an informed decision to deal drugs. It is an epidemic (and it's actually a growing epidemic in rural white communities, too) but it exists because of a lack of legitimate opportunity in that person's life or community. Drug money is better than no money. We have to change A) the education with which these people are informed of their choices and B) the opportunities which exist for them.

Second, it's not productive for either of us to have a pity party of who has it the worst. I'll agree that blacks do. But if you can't see that Southern white men are enduring the same kind - if not degree - of economic dispossession, you're not paying attention. Factory jobs are closing up and shipping to China. What textile jobs remained in this state were shipped to Central America because of Bob Aderholt's CAFTA. Once upon a time, US Steel and US Pipe supported black and white middle classes in the city of Birmingham. That is no longer the case. These are issues of common interest to white and black, as are government programs like social security, VA, and medicare. You want to see things through the prism of race - that is legitimate and understandable. But my point is that the President cannot reach inside people's hearts and change their views on race (they must do that themselves) but he can advocate and fight for economic policies instead of buying into a philosophy fostered by rich white people (i.e. that the real problem is government spending; remember: President Obama very nearly gave away trillions in Medicare/Social Security cuts for peanuts). I believe Obama has the fire in his belly; I just think it's time for him to use it. If he does, I promise you there are plenty of Southern white men in the Deep South whose opinions will change.

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by: bluebearcat @ Fri Dec 23, 2011 at 16:31:08 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Actually, I've been very much paying attention to the issue (4.00 / 1)

The economic blight of Southern white males is very obvious and there is no denial it doesn't exist.  There are areas of the South have been completely economically descimated where there is nothing left. 

My point is there is business that still incomplete in a number of Southern states including Alabama and South Carolina to just make the place just equitable of basic public services for those whom are born there especially those of color.  It is very hard for me as a person of color and LGBT to feel that much beyond basic human compassion when things are 3x as hard for me to just exist in this region of the US.  Especially, when so many members of that said group has shown they don't want to listen to anything anyone that looks like me has to say about anything and instead just displays so much animosity or outright aversion towards anything 'foreign' to their worldview.  

I'm not trying to make this into a pissing game, but this tit-for-tat type of political game that has been going on here between the racial groups in the South isn't helping at all (example, Alabama HB56).  It seems anything that has been crafted to benefit of one group seems to always come at the detriment or omission of the existence of others.  9 out 10 times it has always been to the detriment of those of color.  So there needs to be some major concessions and cultural engagement on that should be made on the part of more Southern white males' before you expect much more basic compassion from me and any other social egalitarian.

Honestly, I don't think he was serious about cutting social welfare programs rather calling the Congressional Republicans on their own bluff when they have shown time and time again to want to cut everything but miltary spending from the federal fiscal budget.  The President has been campaigning for incentives to revive the creation of more sustainable jobs.  The campaigning and championing is only part of the solution, but Congress has put some action behind these initiatives.

On the changing of opinions of Southern white men, I'm a cynic on that one.  I don't believe that is going to happen anytime soon.  A few, yes, but mostly suburban and exurban areas.  The majority, I don't think so.  

As you pointed out, too many are not being taught that cultural aversion towards people of color is a very socially destructive trait.  Let me not get started on how de facto racial segregation of residential development patterns contributes to this problem.

"Hypocrites are those whom pick and choose prejudices while giving accolades for their own..."

"It is what it is."  

http://blkindependent.blogspot...

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by: kayman @ Fri Dec 23, 2011 at 19:06:06 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

On economic development and revitalization (4.00 / 1)

The heavy industries of the past are gone and those of us in the South have to face this reality.  Those in Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania has accepted this any began to revitalized their economy in other ways, and thus far Pittsburgh has been quite successful on that front.  This region is a vastly majority white and Appalachian in nature region.  North Carolina was a heavily textile industry state, but has rebound from this as well with a very diversified economy.  Neither of these regions relied on the federal government to provide solutions to their regional economic depossession.  

Birmingham and Alabama should be emphasizing its strength in having so much innovation in its backyard with UAB and push for the development and growth of more homegrown businesses in its most urbanized region.  There are so many brownfields in the region that could be redeveloped into something massive, and Pittsburgh should be an example Birmingham should be able to learn from and follow.

Although there is some sentiments of resentment and anger in the South because of this shift, but most Southern states have initated some form of revitalization to fix this problem.  Ironically, Alabama seems to be the only 'urbanized' Southern state that has not made any true statewide effort to get beyond this.  Rather, there has been numerous band-aids of chasing the automobile industry and foreign companies for large facilities when these aren't long-term solutions to a widespread epidemic.

"Hypocrites are those whom pick and choose prejudices while giving accolades for their own..."

"It is what it is."  

http://blkindependent.blogspot...

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by: kayman @ Fri Dec 23, 2011 at 19:21:23 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

I would argue that Pittsburgh and North Carolina are examples of... (4.00 / 3)

great local leadership, not great statewide planning. In both instances, you've got multiple college/health care campuses that deliver a ton of high end jobs to the community. But those jobs in education and health care are at the end of the day incredibly dependent on federal government spending. And their benefits are little felt in central Pennsylvania and western North Carolina. There is no question that the last twenty years have seen an explosion in the number of great jobs for upper middle class professionals of all races. The plain fact is that there are not enough of those jobs to go around and the dropoff from having a postgrad degree and working at UAB to just having a high school diploma is astronomical. And that doesn't even take into consideration how little those things have benefited the Black Belt region and the northern section of the state. Obama has delivered a presidency that appeals to the attorney working at Bradley Arant or the public health official at UAB. What I am arguing is he needs to deliver more to the laid off sock mill worker in Scottsboro, the laid off construction worker in Cullman, or the laid off postal worker in West End, or the steelworker in Gee's Bend who has to sleep at the plant because gas is so expensive that he would lose money if he drove home every night. I want to hear a more populist tone from this President that sounds like he appreciates and shares the anger that average Americans are feeling. If he captures that tone, he can win back white votes. Ignore the traditional black/white left/right BS political calculus. The President needs to tell his story direct to the American people and make sure he clearly defines who the villain is (Roosevelt called it "fear" this President might can call it "greed"). 

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by: bluebearcat @ Sat Dec 24, 2011 at 00:30:00 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

This President shoud definitely call it greed (4.00 / 1)

We should all call it greed.  It's the enemy.  Fear is its tool.

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Sat Dec 24, 2011 at 01:04:00 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Arguably, yes it is but those states have the policy in place for great planning and economic development initiatives (4.00 / 1)

That is something Alabama truly lacks.  Alabama has track history for being so damn piecemail on progressive policymaking that allows localities like counties (not just municipalities) to handle their individual regional issues.  Although Western North Carolina and Central Pennsylvania isn't the portmanteau transition from a rural textile economies to booming up-and-coming urbanized region, but they both have the tools in place to initiate something that could.  It does goes back to a leadership issue, that everyone in everywhere is facing.

Aside from Oregon and Hawaii, there aren't any such station in the Union that is a true representation of a successful statewide initative that has turn the tides of its economic course.  Alabama doesn't even give its counties, where there should be more home rule and strong local governance enforcement in place for the officials and leaders there to make it happen.  Until such things do fall into place.

Populist message is a difficult thing for a politico like Presidnet Obama to do beyond telling his story.  He has framed the discussion on 'greed' and shown some 'anger' because of the frustration generated by beancounters in the Fortune 500 companies whom won't hire anyone although they've seen their bottom line goe up for the past 2 years.  His present initiative to hammer it home about the payroll tax for the American people along with other issues of getting more jobs, but let's not forget 'angry' and 'black man' doesn't ever mix well in political terms.   

"Hypocrites are those whom pick and choose prejudices while giving accolades for their own..."

"It is what it is."  

http://blkindependent.blogspot...

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by: kayman @ Sat Dec 24, 2011 at 02:34:14 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

Here is where we fundamentally disagree... (0.00 / 0)

not on state policies/politics (Constitutional Reform is a must here in 'bama), but on Obama. He has not once once embraced the righteous anger of a man who understands that the system is designed to prevent risk for the rich while shifting the burden of risk to the poor. He has instead sought to protect those banksters that profit from that system. Does he do this less than a GOPer would? Certainly, but my point is that if he would get back to the FDR approach to the rich people who have destroyed our economy (Roosevelt said when informed that his policies would alienate the bankers "I welcome their hatred"), he would find legions of Americans white and black ready to join with him. Ask the most conservative redneck Southern white man you know what he thinks of the bank bailouts and you will find a well of righteous anger. Obama has never properly capitalized on that. If he does so, he can find a well of political capital that has only ever really been tapped by FDR and Truman.

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by: bluebearcat @ Sat Dec 24, 2011 at 05:31:29 AM UTC

[ Parent ]

that last part (4.00 / 1)

 When Obama shows up and people hear him in person, it is much more difficult to consider him an alien thing out to destroy the country.

reminds me of John Edwards' comment after the 2004 campaign:

It's hard to convince people to vote for you when you can't be bothered to talk to them.

That's what happens when Democrats write off the South.  It's really easy to demonize people you haven't met.  Harder to do when they're standing right in front of you and missing horns and a tail....

There are no "safe" Republican districts. You can run but you can't hide.  - Rahm Emmanuel

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by: countrycat @ Fri Dec 23, 2011 at 20:58:18 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

and one more thing... (4.00 / 2)

Bluebearcat & Kayman, thanks for this debate.  I really enjoyed reading it and you both are eloquent in expressing your opinions.

As I read through the thread, I'd read one comment and think "wow, he has that exactly right!"  and then I'd read the response and think "gee, he's right too..." Because every person here brings his/her own perspective - and therefore his/her own truth - to each discussion.  The more we understand each other, the easier it is to work together for change.

The numerous perspectives and debates about the best tactics to use to reach our common goals is one of the things I like best about the LIA community.

Please, both of you keep talking because I learn something each time you write!

There are no "safe" Republican districts. You can run but you can't hide.  - Rahm Emmanuel

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by: countrycat @ Fri Dec 23, 2011 at 21:06:59 PM UTC

[ Parent ]

Well (0.00 / 0)

Yeah.

Qui bibit, dormit; qui dormit, non peccat; qui non peccat, sanctus est; ergo qui bibit sanctus est.

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by: SaintSatinStain @ Sun Jan 08, 2012 at 16:06:18 PM UTC