LIA and change

by: Old Prosecutor

Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 21:23:37 PM CDT

( - promoted by mooncat)

Redeye recently threw one of her patented rants. The essence of the rant is that LIA has changed for the worse, a fact she attributes to infiltration by double ought right wing spies (lets see how many of you remember where the double ought spy reference comes from).

Caveat: I am quite sure Redeye considers me one of those spies. Of course, Redeye considers anyone who holds a position on any subject less liberal than her own or who disagrees with her on any subject, as a right wing spy. Be that as it may, there is no doubt I am more conservative than she.

I have been posting on here for appx 18 months. I agree that LIA has changed but unlike Redeye think that change has been for the better. One change I have noticed is that far more people post on this blog now. The people are more diverse and bring a greater variety of views to the table. More on that in a moment.

Old Prosecutor :: LIA and change

The second thing I have noticed is that this blog has become far more influential. Politicians seem to leap at the opportunity to be interviewed by Mooncat and/or Countrycat The real sign of influence is when a candidate for governor attacks you when you post something they don't like.

However with influence comes responsibility. For one thing,it requires that you carefully draw the line between facts and opinion. For example, this is a purely opinion piece. As the backbone of this blog, Mooncat and Countrycat seem to have accepted this responsibility and they are within their rights to insist that if we advance something as fact, that we get our facts right.

Now back to diversity. IMHO, diversity is good. It makes the conversation on here more informative and stimulating. Second, even if doesn't change your opinion it forces you to sharpen your arguments. Neither the right nor the left have enough adherents to win an election on their own. To win, each side must win over the middle. I am not sure how you are going to do that if you are unwillingly to even have a discussion with someone who does not agre with you. I am always amazed when someone complains of having their views suppressed, then proposes to correct that by suppressing others views.

Finally it is amazing at the common ground even people with the most divergent views can find. For example, the fact that Brian, Countrycat, Dale Jackson and Mooncat can all agree that Parker Griffith must go, gives me real hope that World Peace can be achieved.

I also think that the increased diversity is related to the increased influence. When a blog appears to be infected with a form of "group think:" it is easy to marginalize the posters when they agree on something. However when you see people who normally have different political views agree, it conveys a powerful message.

So I think the change has been for the better. Your opinion???

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LIA and change | 19 comments

Jethro Bodine (4.00 / 1)

And it's "double naught spy."

Work harder and work smarter!

by: mooncat @ Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 22:26:10 PM CDT

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I stand corrected (4.00 / 1)

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

by: Old Prosecutor @ Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 22:56:52 PM CDT

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by: you @ soon

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I was thinking Beverly Hillbillies (4.00 / 1)

but was sure that was way too easy....

I'm not short. I'm fun size!!

by: countrycat @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 07:50:12 AM CDT

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As someone... (4.00 / 1)

...who has both been on the wrong side of Redeye (and reconciled) and been reminded of the importance of citing facts and not opinions by the Cats, I can see both sides of this arguement.

My wife and I have this conversation "It's not so much what you say, but its how you say it"., I think thats the case with Redeye. I admire her for her ability, passion and knowledge, we don't agree all the time, but 85%-95% ain't too bad. I will admit, I raised an eyebrow about DaleJackson's re-admittance, but that wasn't my call, this isn't my blog.

This site has brought it up a notch, thanks in very huge large part to mooncat and countrycat and their efforts. I recognize too that this site has great potential to be a force in Alabama, if we maintain this momentum, with some adjustments.

I love this place...I wish that I could contribute as much as I want to, to the degree that I know I can. I've enjoyed my time here and have learned so much from people that know more than I do.

Let's hug this thing out... :)

9.13, 4.82, Just left of Gandhi.

by: archangelsk @ Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 22:51:24 PM CDT

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You weren't on the wrong side of Redeye, (0.00 / 0)

You were on a different side than Redeye, and that's OK. That's what debate/discussion on forums is all about. It's about an exchange of ideas. It's a give and take. Point and counter point. Sometimes we agree, sometimes we disagree. But in the end, tolerant people can agree to disagree without being disagreeable without resorting to name calling, personal, attacks, insults or retaliation. I can vehemently disagree with your position/point of view and still respect you as my fellow human being. I don't hate anyone because they don't always agree with my point of view.

My parents raised me to stand up for what I believe in. I was raised stand against injustice and encourage others to do the same. I was raised to fight for my rights and the rights of the weak and disenfranchised. To fight to change unjust laws. To not accept being treated as a second class citizen. My weapon is not guns, bombs, knives or fist, but the written and sometimes spoken word.

I would like to point out I'm the only participant of the forum who is constantly criticitized for "the way I say things". Is it the way I say things that makes you uncomfortable or is it WHAT I'm saying that makes you uncomfortable?

I don't always agree with everyone's point of view, but I respect the right of every commentor to speak their minds and write their truths in what ever manner/style they so choose. All I ask is for the same courtesy and respect.

Do I have a sharp wit and a sharp tongue? You betcha. Do I make mistakes? You betcha? Am I afraid to take a stand? Nope. Do I back down and go along to get along? Not on your life. Do I admit when I'm wrong, try to correct mistakes and apologize when I make mistakes? Absolutely. Can I give as good as I get? Yep.

I too recognize and appreciate the great potential of this blog, however I see that potential being in jepordy if liberal voices are suppressed in favor of conservative voices, or if the country cat and mooncat can't treat all bloggers fairly.

I was banned from life from the al.com because I dared to express my my anti Bush policies point of view. I was told the "owners" had the right to do ban anyone at anytime for any reason. Here I go again.....

For a long time I was the lone African American front pager. Those priviledges were taken from me because I refused to "tone down my rhetoric". As of today there are no African American on the contact us list at LiA. Supposedly it was because I made the blog look bad, but I believe it was because I posted the link from the Field Negro when Artur Davis was named House Negro of the Day (see the FN sidebar) because he voted against the health care reform bill when the majority of his consitutents didn't have access to health care.

Apologies if this comment makes anyone uncomfortable, but even those of us with super powers can't control how you feel. :)

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

by: Redeye @ Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 23:53:26 PM CDT

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PS arch, (0.00 / 0)

You and I disagreed about the method, but we both want what best for all students, regardless of race, gender, or class.

And I believe we had differing points of view about James Perkins and Rose Sanders (?) other than that, I can't find other examples of us having a major difference of opinion. But despite our differing opinions, in the end we both agree the residents of the 7th district deserve and need progressive representation instead of ccontinuing to be left out and left behind.

Let us march on until victory is won, we WILL overcome someday.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

by: Redeye @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 00:13:40 AM CDT

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I should mention how much I love the increased participation (4.00 / 1)

Nothing makes me happier than seeing a first time commenter -- except maybe a first time diarist. We've pretty well established that Alabama bloggers are not getting much in the way of cash payments, your feedback is what keeps us going.

Thanks to everyone for joining the conversation, and if you haven't, jump in now. The water is fine.

Work harder and work smarter!

by: mooncat @ Wed Mar 17, 2010 at 23:05:21 PM CDT

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We're all in it together (4.00 / 1)

The left has its own not-so-fun stuff going on. I feel REALLY bad for Marcy Wheeler, for instance, because FDL has gone off the rails when Jane Hamsher starts triangulating Sanders and Kucinich.

Bob Kincaid complains about the 9/11 truthers calling in. I deal with firebaggers at HuffPo. And then you get the truly paranoid personality convinced the world is a grand conspiracy; they infest progressive websites. The trick is not to let them take over.

Website || Twitter

by: Osborne Ink @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 02:43:12 AM CDT

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FDL is a sad case (0.00 / 0)

I asked to be taken off their mailing list last month -- at some point the shouting becomes counterproductive and Jane has passed that point.

Work harder and work smarter!

by: mooncat @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 07:28:27 AM CDT

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Groupthink is the enemy of any tight-knit group (4.00 / 2)

My first year in college I took a Political Science course and can't for the life of me remember the title of the course. creeping age, no doubt...

But one of the textbooks was "Victims of Groupthink" by Irving Janis. Unfortunately, it's pretty hard to find now. I'm glad I kept mine from school.

Janis defines Groupthink this way:

The psychological drive for consensus at any cost that suppresses dissent and appraisal of alternatives in cohesive decision-making groups.

He focuses on some US foreign policy fiascoes: the escalation of the Vietnam War, Bay of Pigs invasion, and more. But also highlights cases, such as the Cuban Missile Crisis, where groupthink was avoided.

This isn't just a problem at high levels of government. I've seen it happen even on my synagogue board about 10 years ago.

Having served on the boards of many religious, political, and community groups, I can say that there is often subtle - and not so subtle - pressure to go along with the majority to "make this vote unanimous, what do you say?"

And the only board votes I've truly regretted were when I "went along" so as not to cause trouble with the majority. When it all went to hell, I couldn't even say "I told you so!"

So it's been very important to me as Mooncat has sucked me deeper into LIA and I've spent more and more time traveling, interviewing, writing, and commenting, doing misc blog work that we never, ever do the groupthink thing.

LIA is only useful as a political and progressive force if it helps inform voters, educate them about issues and candidates, and - as OP said - sharpen their wits when discussing issues of disagreement.

The worst that can happen is that you find holes in your argument or your blood pressure inches up for a few minutes. The best that can happen is that you change minds and build bridges.

There's no point to only talking with people you agree with; it's a lot easier to just stay at home and talk to the mirror.

Ok... this is long and rambling... I'll go have my breakfast now!

I'm not short. I'm fun size!!

by: countrycat @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 08:12:46 AM CDT

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I have many thoughts here..and the first one is to thank you OP for discussing this openly. (4.00 / 3)

My tendency is to not talk about conflicts when they are "in the family", and the fact that I treasure the contributors and participants and energy of LIA have kept me quiet about this issue. In that spirit I will give strict opinion here, and there are no footnotes or links to back this up--just my two cents.

The cats have created a living breathing medium for news and REAL facts that a reader can get no where else that I have found in this state. We live in a place with pitiful media coverage and no extra funds lying around to afford intense research journalism. Also, there is power when a group of individuals share news they have found and also share their experiences. With the time and talent of the cats and some other contributors LIA has become a place of REAL NEWS, not just opinion. That does not mean that opinions are not welcome--it does mean that gossip can't be tossed out and called truth. It also means that opinion should be stated as opinion and not as the gospel that all must share.

Redeye is a true asset to this group. She is fiery and passionate and well-informed and well-read. She is funny and smart and as left as you get in Alabama. This is the perfect place for her to thrive. However, it seems that as soon as Artur Davis's campaign for governor really took off her momentum turned into an undamped rage. I don't get it--I'm sure there is some history there that I don't understand, but it doesn't seem to be in sync with the Redeye that has posted before. I support her as a friend and fellow LIA community member. However, I totally support the cats move in this situation. I'm guessing they hate this situation more than anyone else.

by: melmel @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 08:46:53 AM CDT

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My "undamped rage" regarding Artur Davis (0.00 / 0)

Let me see if I can explain my "undamped rage at Artur Davis to you my friend. First let me say, it's not about Artur Davis the man, the son, the husband or the friend. It's about Artur Davis the elected public official and his actions as an elected public official. It's not personal it's politics.

And yes there is some "history" that started with the Davis' campaign decision to pander to the right wing at the expense of the tradtional democratic base. I don't know if you were a member of the LiA family but here is a ling to when Artur Davis first ripped his drawers with me. http://www.leftinalabama.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=3314 (For some reason LiA links don't link).

I've tried to give Congressman Artur Davis the benefit of the doubt. Really I have. I let it go when he defended The Azalea Trail Maids being the only representative in Inaugural Parade. I let it go when he said he was resigning as a member of the House Judicary Committee so he would have more time to run for Governor. But THIS time he has ripped his drawers and shown me his natural born ebony donkey.

His vote against the Hate Crimes Bill was a tear, but the final rip was his vote against health care reform and his vote in favor of The Stoopid, I mean Stupak amendment.

That's not gossip that's truth.

As for the gossip tossed as truth charge, I don't know what you or the cats are talking about.

Just because I have an undamped rage at Artur Davis doesn't mean I should have my front page priviledges revoked. LiA was a place in which I could thrive, that is before the Artur Davis for Governor campaign took over, I mean off.

The thing I can't understand is why you and other feel as if I I don't have the right (no pun) to criticize or complain about Davis' actions? I also don't understand why you and other Davis supporters consider my criticism/complaints with his actions as an attack on you personally. It's not about you and it's not about me. It's about country. You have the right to defend, condone, forgive, condem, criticize and complain about elected officials and so do I. We are allowed to criticize and complain our elected officials in America. This is the land of the free andhoe of the brave. Our troops fight and die for our rights and our freedoms. All of our rights and freedoms. Remember?

I hope this clarifies my postion regarding Davis and any other concerns you may have. If not,let me know. I am always willing to engage in productive, civil dialogue with my fellow human beings. In the end we may not agree, but we will respect each others point of view. Tolerant people can agree to disagree and still be friends.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

by: Redeye @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 13:10:52 PM CDT

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The enemy of my enemy is my friend (4.00 / 1)

First, Redeye I don't believe anyone on here has denied you the right to criticize or lambast or rant against Davis. You have voiced your opinion loud and clear and often and I think everyone understands why you don't like Davis.

It appears to me that we have people on here who are strong Davis supporters and also people who are strong Sparks supporters. The fact that those who support Davis do not agree with you is not a denial of your rights nor a personal attack on you. It is an expression of that "right to disagree" which you claim to cherish.

Where the problem seems to be is that you do not wish anyone on here to express support for Davis. That would be a denial of their right to have an opinion and I am surprised that a strong advocate of free speech like yourself would even consider suppressing the opinion of another.

The main source of your anger seems to be, you no longer have "front page privileges". Apparently that means that any diary you post must be promoted by one of the front pagers. Have you submitted any diaries that have not been promoted? If that is not the case, I don't understand your anger. In any event that appears to be (IMHO) a matter that needs to be hashed out between you, Mooncat and the other front pagers in PRIVATE. I think it is counterproductive for it to be used as a dagger in every post you make.

Finally a question for you Redeye - I will vote in the Democratic Primary this year just as I have done in every election in my lifetime. My choices are Davis or Sparks for Governor. At this point I am undecided. You have said many times why you do not like Davis. However every time I have voted against a candidate on the theory that anyone has to be better, I find I am wrong, someone else can be worse.

So the question - instead of telling me why I shouldn't vote for Davis, tell me why I should vote for Sparks and keep in mind that the issues you cite against Davis are Federal issues - I want to know what you think Sparks will do better in Alabama than Davis and I want positives, not negatives.

In fairness I invite the supporters of both candidates to do the same. Please feel free to take this diary off subject but remember one rule - Tell me why I should vote for your guy, not why I shouldn't vote for the other.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

by: Old Prosecutor @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 15:02:35 PM CDT

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One more thing I must say! (4.00 / 1)

When I said this:

With the time and talent of the cats and some other contributors LIA has become a place of REAL NEWS, not just opinion. That does not mean that opinions are not welcome--it does mean that gossip can't be tossed out and called truth. It also means that opinion should be stated as opinion and not as the gospel that all must share.

It means that there are right wing groups are out there where the truth is NOT required. Birthers and death panelists don't care about facts. Because we require the truth we are not afraid of the Brians and Dale Jacksons of this world as long as they KEEP THE FACTS STRAIGHT. Happily we can all agree upon the facts of the lyin' Parker Griffith. And when we stick to the facts we can really work together.

by: melmel @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 08:50:46 AM CDT

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Distinction with a difference (0.00 / 0)

Sometimes there just are no facts to back up an opinion. Facts and information help form opinions. For example, it is my opinion Artur Davis believes white voters will vote for him because he's thrown the traditional democratic base under the bus. I don't have any facts to back up that opinion.

definition of opinion;

personal view: the view somebody takes about an issue, especially when it is based solely on personal judgment
"In my opinion it's all a waste of time."

definition of fact;

something known to be true: something that can be shown to be true, to exist, or to have happened
"George Bush was the President on 911."

The opinions I state are mine and mine alone and are not the opinions of the administrators, sponsor, other commentors, or the advertisors at Left in Alabama.

The difference between you and me, and Brian and radio boy, is you and I may disagree on the candidate or the method, but in the end we believe in the core democratic principles and agenda. Dale and Brian are against every thing we stand for and vis versa. Sure they stand united in their revulsion of Parker Griffith, but that's because it benefits their agenda.

As I've said before I feel the same way about Artur Davis that you and I feel about Parker Griffith. IMHO there isn't a dimes worth difference between either one of them. Both of them do whats right (pun intended) for them, not what's right for the people they were elected to represent.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

by: Redeye @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 14:13:52 PM CDT

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Infest the host... (0.00 / 0)

and then kill it.

Kidding. I love this place, it's like crack. I disagree with almost everything. But I think I am (and Brian is) 15 times harder on "our" side than on the other side. We need more of that from here.

The content on this blog is outstanding and I am glad some peace has been made.

Dale, I have to say you were right - mooncat

You're an entertainer son! -Parker Griffith

by: DaleJackson @ Thu Mar 18, 2010 at 12:03:08 PM CDT

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Redeye, I hope you read my comment. (4.00 / 2)

I value your insight, research, and genuine commitment to many progressive and democratic causes. You are clearly an extremely intelligent person with much passion. Unfortunately, African American or not, you went over the line in expressing your opinions and turning everyone on the blog off with your strident, never ending rants. You went so far as to try to make others feel guilty for not supporting your particular position. Others were made to feel that they were racist should they not support you totally. It reached the point that I simply skipped your posts since I knew I would be offended. I have never been a racist and never will be. Without your dominance, it appears that the blog is flourishing. At some point another African American will be a front pager. I look forward to that day, however; I do not feel guilty as you would have me feel that there is not one today.

Op, thank you for bringing up this previously difficult topic so that everyone can move on.

by: Sundog @ Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 23:01:11 PM CDT

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Let me see if I've got this straight... (0.00 / 0)

African American or not(?) I turned everyone on the blog off with my strident, never ending rants? And that's my problem because....?

You went so far as to try to make others feel guilty for not supporting your particular position. Others were made to feel that they were racist should they not support you totally.

Sundog, even those of us with superpowers can't make you feel guilty or racist, happy or sad.

I understand and support your decision to skip post that might offend you. That's what I love about blogging, no one is forced to read anything they don't choose to read.

At some point another African American will be a front pager. I look forward to that day, however; I do not feel guilty as you would have me feel that there is not one today.

Again, I have absolutely no control over any guilty feelings you may or may not have.

BTW, I look forward at some point an African American will be a front pager too. :)

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

by: Redeye @ Fri Mar 19, 2010 at 23:38:44 PM CDT

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Redeye, you are absolutely correct. (4.00 / 1)

You cannot have any control over any guilty feelings I may or may not have. I have total control. But you tried to make me and others feel guilty i.e. the Azalea Maids. I have no guilt about who I am. My resentment comes into play when others try to give me that one and only feeling.

by: Sundog @ Sat Mar 20, 2010 at 11:24:56 AM CDT

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