Is the story of Phenix City relevant?

I heard it slightly differently. I never heard about "bosses" in Phenix City... (4.00 / 2)

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. . . I just heard the term "mob", talking about the '30s, mind you.

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by: BenGoshi @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 06:37:51 AM CST

Bosses (4.00 / 3)

In regards to gambling there were 4-5 major bosses (who ran competing lotteries and gambling houses) and 5-10 second tier bosses.

Others ran prostitution, drug sales, baby sales and such other illegal enterprises as they could think of.

The Phenix City vice guys were never really a centralized mob but rather they were a loose group of competitors who from time to time united when their common interest was threatened or a common goal needed to be achieved. 

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 10:53:47 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Baby sales? (4.00 / 1)

Is that what it sounds like?

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 12:24:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Yes (4.00 / 2)

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 12:33:15 PM CST

[ Parent ]

My father used to tell me that whenever they played football against Phenix City, they... (4.00 / 2)

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. . . almost wanted to lose:  that if you won (beat Phenix City) you may or may not make it out of town with your skin.  It was a rough town.
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by: BenGoshi @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 18:28:27 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Ancient History (0.00 / 0)

Limited stakes gaming has been legal in Colorado since 1990 in three former mining communities, Central City, Black Hawk and Cripple Creek.  I have never heard any complaints from citizens of those communities about big gaming bosses strong arming the local political establishment or having to worry about sheriff deputies or cops on the take from them.

Phenix City is/was ancient history.  Its too bad that Patterson lost his father, but these are different times.  I highly doubt that Ronnie Gilley is going to have a shoot out on the streets of Dothan over this.  I hope that the legislature will listen to the people and allow them to vote on this.  According to some of the polling ive seen, pro-gaming side has about 70% support.

9.13, 4.82, Just left of Gandhi.

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by: archangelsk @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 11:15:26 AM CST

As a student of history (double minor in college) (4.00 / 3)

and as someone who has lived more of it than he cares to remember (although no where near as much as Piggieheart) I am always curious when someone dismisses a lesson of history as "Ancient History" and with "it couldn't happen today".

First is not all history, by definition, ancient to some degree or the other. So, how old does history have to be before we can safely ignore a lesson therefrom? Is it 10 years, 20, 50, 100, 1000?

Obviously 50 years is so ancient to be discarded in your mind. Beyond the fact that 50 years is a blink of an eye in terms of history, I have this problem.

WWII, Hitler and the Holocaust taught us the evils and dangers of anti-semitism. Since that was more than 50 years ago, can we disregard those lessons?

The Civil Rights struggles in the 50s and 60s taught us the evils of racism, can we now ignore those lessons?

Slavery ended in this country almost a 150 years ago. So can we safely respond to anyone citing slavery as a root cause of the struggles of African Americans today - "thats ancient history"

Those are but a few of the many examples that come to mind. As to "it couldn't happen today". Anytime someone says that, I always ask "why not?" 

As human nature evolved and changed so much since 1954 that we are somehow immune? According to you are there no such things as corrupt cops and politicans in our present?

Following that argument - slavery couldn't happen today, but it does. Racism couldn't happen today - but it does. Antisemitism couldn't exist today- but it does.

If we have evolved so little that we can't prevent those, what makes you think we have out grown greed and corruption. 

One lesson we should learn from Phenix City is that any time a community or a county or a state is dependent on gambling revenue, they are in no position to regulate or control it.

Another lesson is that you can not allow those who control gambling to write the laws, particularly on gambling. A cursory reading of the "Sweet Home Alabama" bills reveals that they are intended to create a monopoly for the few as opposed to the interests of the many.

If there is a vote, and I do not oppose one, let it be a straight yes we will legalize gambling or no we will not. Drop the monopoly of 10 locations with 7 of those already awarded, drop the tax breaks for existing gambling operations and require that gambling licenses be bid on.  

 

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 12:53:59 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Well... (4.00 / 2)

OP, do you really think that something like Phenix City could happen in Redest of Red in the Bible Belt Alabama in 2010?  Could you clarify what you meant by "One lesson we should learn from Phenix City is that any time a community or a county or a state is dependent on gambling revenue, they are in no position to regulate or control it"?  There are scores of communities across this country that derive a great deal of their incomes and could so considered to be "dependent" on those monies, and yet they seem to be well positioned to control and regulate it.  Las Vegas and Nevada seemed to do pretty good, the Tribal casinos do well (for the most part), I look again in Colorado at the three places where limited stakes gambling is permitted.  I spent a couple of years in the state house in Colorado and I never saw any smoke filled conference rooms or was privvy to any meetings between casino lobbyists and legislators.  But then again Colorado has a pretty good ethics law...

I agree that there should not be a monopoly given to the current operators.  If we are going to allow gaming, allow it, let local communities decide if its right for them, tax the holy living bejesus out of them and count all the money later.  

9.13, 4.82, Just left of Gandhi.

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by: archangelsk @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 14:01:58 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Actually (4.00 / 1)

I think human nature is such that Phenix City can happen anywhere and anytime. Remember Alabama was just as conservative in 1954 as it is today, we just didn't have the red/blue labels. The esssence of the Phenix City corruption was unscrupulous people + tons of cash. That is the key combination for any corruption.

Phenix City was not just dependent on gambling revenues, they were totally dependent. In the 1940's and 50"s Phenix City and Russell County had two options, but for the gambling revenue. They could either discontinue services or raise taxes a great deal. Is that not where thet State of Alabama is today?

Why do you think the initial racetracks located in Greene County and Macon County instead of say, Baldwin County. The answer is that in those counties, they are huge fish in a very small pond. Any wonder the local District Attorneys and law enforcement would not touch them and in fact in Greene County the Sheriff has threatened to resist State Police?

As to Vegas, a little history is in order. The original casinos there were owned by the Mafia and Neveda had little real control over them. It was not until corporate America, led by Howard Hughes, bought the casinos from the Mafia that Nevada really exerted control over them.

The tribal casinos are regulated by the Indian Gaming Commission, not local or state officials so I don't think they are a good example. 

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 14:24:12 PM CST

[ Parent ]

History is important, and this is one fascinating story. (4.00 / 2)

However, I will disagree on this point.

I think human nature is such that Phenix City can happen anywhere and anytime. Remember Alabama was just as conservative in 1954 as it is today, we just didn't have the red/blue labels.

I think there is a world of difference between now and then. Are we a conservative state as a whole? Yes. Are we like 1954? HELL no. Our civic consciousness has evolved. Human rights and civil rights have improved. We can be smarter about how gambling is handled. We can learn from history.

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by: melmel @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 18:50:24 PM CST

[ Parent ]

"We can learn from history" (4.00 / 1)

My point exactly but only if we study the lessons of history - not dismiss them out of hand because they are "ancient history" or "It couldn't happen today".

For example, the pro gambling forces claim that Governor Riley's crackdown on gambling is payback for large campaign donations given him by Mississippi Indian tribes to protect their operations by stifling competition.

Note the Phenix City bosses made large campaign donations (and tried to win an election for attorney general by vote buying and fraud) for the exact same reasons.

Example two - the Phenx City gambling bosses had a very cozy relationship with then Attorney General Silas Garrett. The anti gambling folks today question the relationship between the gamblers and Troy King.

Last example - a state level agency (the Alabama National Guard) had to be called in to clean up Phenix City because local law enforcement and the solicitor (the then name for District Attorney) refused to act. Isn't that the same justification Riley uses for his state level task force?

 

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 20:43:22 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Pro-gambling forces nowadays are making large campaign donations of their own (4.00 / 1)

Alabama gambling interests gave $2.2 million to PACs

That's just IN THE LAST THREE DAYS OF 2009!  And, although we won't have any insight on this until mid April, odds are very good that a substantial chunk of Ron Sparks' amazing $249,000 haul on January 11, 2010 came from gambling interests.

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 21:13:39 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Colorado has a pretty good ethics law (4.00 / 1)

Alabama has a sheet of tissue paper, stretched thin.  That's one of the reasons gambling money can very easily equal increased government corruption here.  We're already the fourth most corrupt state government in the US.  More gambling money could move us right into the number one slot.

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 21:17:48 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Not all of Alabama is Bible Belt (0.00 / 0)

The coast never has been due to the fact that it's essentially Louisiana in culture and while Huntsville historically was the inmigration of educated professionals from other parts of the country has essentially taken it out (though most of the metro probably remains).

 

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by: jacool @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:28:42 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Very interesting diary, OP. I was stationed at Benning in the 60s (4.00 / 1)

when the story/history of Phenix City was still fresk, and I believe your recounting to be quite accurate.

However, I do not understand why an otherwise well written account has to be lowered into the garbage pits by your arbitrary and unnecessary reference to my - ahem- longevity maturity. How dare you, Sir?!

A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Margaret Mead  

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by: piggieheart @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 20:24:31 PM CST

[ Parent ]

You're only as young as you feel, PH! (0.00 / 0)

Anyone as active as you are must feel pretty darned young!  Best to you and Mrs. PH.  I still dream about that Key Lime Pie she brought to the party.

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Thu Mar 04, 2010 at 22:02:35 PM CST

[ Parent ]

Terrific post! (4.00 / 2)

Thanks for the history lesson!

I had wondered about the Phenix City references, but never when I was in a position to research the issue.

I'm not sure that we can always assume that what did happen will happen, but the basic nature of people in general certainly doesn't seem to change much.  

Any business that generates large amounts of profits - cash profits - invites corruption.  That doesn't mean that gambling is bad or that I oppose it.  But we have to be really careful about how it's regulated so the foxes don't end up guarding the chickens.

I'm not short.  I'm fun size!!

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by: countrycat @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 13:46:27 PM CST

"Big Love" has more relevence to today than Phenix City IMHO (4.00 / 1)

I'm hooked on the HBO weekly original series "Big Love"

Big Love is an American television drama on HBO about a fictional fundamentalist Mormon^[1][2][3] family in Utah that practices polygamy. Big Love currently stars Bill Paxton, Chloë Sevigny, Jeanne Tripplehorn, Ginnifer Goodwin, Harry Dean Stanton, Željko Ivanek, Amanda Seyfried, Grace Zabriskie, Matt Ross, Mireille Enos and Cassi Thomson.

Just so happens season four is about guess what.........Indian Casino/gambling complete with a high powered Washington D.C. Lobbyist, The Christian Coalition, A United States Congressman, A state Senate campaign,bomb threats, meth, poverty, extortion, a golfing junket to Scottland.  Talk about art imitating life.

 

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 19:45:59 PM CST

Thanks for the tip. (4.00 / 1)

I may have to start getting them from Netflix.  We dropped HBO when the got netflix.

I'm not short.  I'm fun size!!

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by: countrycat @ Wed Mar 03, 2010 at 07:18:42 AM CST

[ Parent ]

Great post! I love a good history lesson! (4.00 / 3)

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by: Gayla @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 20:22:33 PM CST

I think your head is in the sand... (0.00 / 0)

there are major illegal gambling operations in Alabama right now.  Allegedly, the largest sports betting operation in the United States outside Vegas is right here in Birmingham. There are underground casinos and poker games in Birmingham, Mobile, Montgomery, Huntsville, and anywhere else you can think of.  Some are run by enterprising locals, some by gangs and small-time hoods, some by meth-dealing families, and some by out-of-state organized crime interests.  What they all have in common is unequivocal support for the status quo - legalized gambling means the end of their business.

Plenty of states and nations have managed legalized gambling just fine by strictly regulating its location, vigorously overseeing its finances, and highly taxing its revenues.  I happen to believe that Alabama can do the same.

Just as legalized alcohol sales in Alabama didn't see the state taken over by bootleggers (indeed legalized alcohol sales meant the end of bootlegging as a big business; modern day bootleggers scrape by on folks too poor/lazy to drive to wet counties or old-timers used to the taste of moonshine), legalized gambling, if handled properly, will not be the end of the world.  Sunshine, after all, is the best disinfectant.

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by: bluebearcat @ Tue Mar 02, 2010 at 23:53:52 PM CST

I'd say it's not relevant (0.00 / 0)

because Phenix City's problem was graft and corruption created by an ILLEGAL trade. Things are very different in, say, Tupelo Mississippi. That's the benefit of a legal, regulated, taxed industry as opposed to one operating in darkness. It's why wet counties don't have problems with bootleggers selling to underage kids: once the point of sale is easy to find, legal to use, and regulated to check IDs, you've eliminated a big part of the social problem. Your timing us uncanny too, as the Times Daily has a revisionist history in letter form today.

Website || Twitter

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by: Osborne Ink @ Sun Mar 14, 2010 at 18:34:37 PM CDT

Uncanny timing indeed, and well said. (0.00 / 0)

There was a revisionist history in article/ad form in this weeks edition of Speaking Out News about Phenix City.  I can't find a link, but it's almost verbetim to this diary.

Point;

 once the point of sale is easy to find, legal to use, and regulated to check IDs, you've eliminated a big part of the social problem.

I was listening to XM talk radio program and a parent talked about how easy it was for under age children to obtain marijuana because it wasn't legal and regulated.   He made the point if they attempt to buy alcohol they have to show a valid picture ID, when all they have to do to buy drugs is meet the dealer in the boys/girls restroom etc.

 

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Sun Mar 14, 2010 at 22:03:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Ooops typo (0.00 / 0)

Should read; It is almost VERBATIM to this diary.

No excuse, but it's been a long day.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Sun Mar 14, 2010 at 22:05:38 PM CDT

[ Parent ]