General (nuisance) Sarah Palin, and other dignitaries

General Palin (4.00 / 1)

indeed...lol

Problem as I see it is that Generals are trained to win wars. They are responsible for the lives of every serviceman under their command. When they find themselves in a war, with people shooting at them and whatnot, they tend to need fast decisions. Huge commitments of men and material, and strategies that are time-dependent are hanging in the balance.

It's always frustrating to an expert to have to bow to the decisions of someone who doesn't really know what they're doing, in consultation with a bunch of other people who don't really know diddly, either. Being in Congress isn't quite the same as graduating from West Point.

Presidents have to think globally, economically, and politically. The two jobs aren't the same. The general wants to win. You can't blame him. It's his job to win.

The President wants to make the right decision. It's his job.

We need to pray he makes the right one, and that the people who have his ear are good advisers.

When in doubt tell the truth. It will confound your enemies and astound your friends.---Mark Twain

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by: julie @ Wed Oct 07, 2009 at 10:57:30 AM CDT

What you say is true, Julie (4.00 / 1)

Especially in the Bush Administration, where Bush listened only to sycophants and yes-men (and women).  Obama is talking to Gen. Jones, Armiral Mullen, and other militarily trained persons, as well as diplomats and political scientists to get the right mix of carrots, sticks, diplomacy and "Shock and Awe".

Every quarterback wants the coach to call a passing play and every running back wants an off tackle sneak. That is why there has to be a coach, in regular clothes, on the sideline, looking at the big picture.  Let the players decide - especially when the players are Generals and Admirals, and you have a banana republic or a sub-Saharan dictatorship. I'll pass on that scenario.  McCrystal was out of line - just as MacArthur was half-century ago. I like thoughtful civilianleadership, providing a brake on militarism.

A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Margaret Mead  

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by: piggieheart @ Wed Oct 07, 2009 at 11:11:11 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Win What????? (0.00 / 0)

Wars are usually fought over something with clear knowledge of who the enemy is and what side they are on.  Examples;

Civil War-North vs South (Slavery)

Revolutionary War-United States of America vs. The United Kindom (independence)

What does "winning the war" in Afghanistan mean exactly?

What are we trying to "win"?

Who is the enemy?

What is the mission?

What are the goals and objectives?

Why the heck is anyone even listening to Sarah Palin in the first place?  Talk about someone that needs to STFU.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Wed Oct 07, 2009 at 12:28:34 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Agree totally, redeye. There is no objective anymore. (0.00 / 0)

Once there was.  Remember "He can run but he can't hide"? We were gonna get that Osama fella.  here is a quote from one of America's great philosophical thinkers:

The president (Bush) must stop saying that Bin Laden can run but he can't hide.Boy, can he hide. We can't find him with cruise missiles, satellites, or million dollar bribes".

But the Connecticut Cowboy had to divert our efforts to another unwinnable arena, this time a campaign that was also indefensible by logic, morals, or the accepted rules of American military engagement, called Iraq. So any chance of quickly and semi-painlessly accomplishing our mission in Afghanastan was lost.

Let's get the hell out!

A small group of thoughtful people could change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.
Margaret Mead  

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by: piggieheart @ Wed Oct 07, 2009 at 12:48:15 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

totally agree on Palin...lol (0.00 / 0)

Yo, Palin, can you hear us? S. T. F. U.! nobody cares! go shoot something! stop meddling in matters that are above your intellectual capacity! Go awaaaaay.

Afghanistan question is a toughie. I think you may be right, and that accomplishing any objective whatsoever there is impossible. Talk about herding cats!

What they seem to be doing is sandwiching the nests of terrorists between two wings, with the objective of herding them into a region where they can be picked off with minimum civilian loss of life. Diplomatic relations with Pakistan are crucial to its success, as is military and police support.

The Taliban, which is aiding abetting and participating in terrorism, needs to be cut off from its source of money, which is mostly opium money from Afghanistan. Control the opium, and you can to a certain extent control the Taliban. US Navy is intercepting drugs, but I'm not sure what the ground picture is.

Easiest thing would be to use a VietNam-style defoliant and simply kill it all, but then you would be beggaring most of the population as well. This doesn't tend to produce support for Uncle Sam.

So let's say we leave. Al Quaeda comes back and establishes itself as the ruling military power there alongside Taliban. Does this help them accomplish terrorist objectives against the US, or does it simply keep them locked away in mountain-goat towns?


When in doubt tell the truth. It will confound your enemies and astound your friends.---Mark Twain

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by: julie @ Wed Oct 07, 2009 at 13:14:28 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I cringe (0.00 / 0)

when I hear the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan spoken about in media and other places. The references seem to always be made with the out-dated 'trench warfare' mentality. The WWII trench warfare thing went out with Vietnam. My father refers to it (with deference to the Vietnamese for the analogy) as 'the war of the elephant and the tiger': the elephant lumbers along, tiger swoops down from the trees and cuts a chunk out of the tiger, goes back into the trees. This repeats until the elephant ultimately bleeds to death. He says this was our early strategy in Vietnam - using trench warfare techniques on people who were using guerilla tactics. The Vietnam endeavor caused a massive reshaping of war-training tactics. My opinion: there is nothing to 'win' in Iraq and Afghanistan. However, there are or should be a set of short-term and long-term goals/objectives that should be reached. I think we have the right set of people working to determine what those are, and where in the process of attaining those goals and objectives the troop draw-downs and withdrawals should be made. As best I can, in my personal conversations, I hope to steer people away from the words 'win/lose' when speaking of our Middle East engagements. As long as we maintain that type of 'win/lose' thinking, we get steered away from properly (IMO) thinking in terms of goals and objectives reached. Win/lose thinking serves the military-industrial complex "endless war" folks, and keeps us mired down and looking at the big picture all wrong. Our service members deserve reasoned, critical thinking and clear-set objectives to obtain - a plan with a clear set of conclusions to be reached...so they can come home.

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by: felicia531 @ Wed Oct 07, 2009 at 18:14:40 PM CDT

Also, enjoy this (0.00 / 0)

from Josh Marshall at TalkingPointsMemo
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.c...  

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by: felicia531 @ Wed Oct 07, 2009 at 18:21:36 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Has Obama boxed himself in? (0.00 / 0)

In poker there comes a point where you must either up the ante or cash your chips in and go home. In Afghanistan we have reached the point where we must either insert more troops or withdraw.

To insert more troops would require Obama to essentially adopt the Bush "surge" strategy which he opposed as a Senator.Additionally he will have to accept the increased casualties that will result.

On the other hand Obama ran on a platform that Afghan was the "righteous war" and that Bush lost focus and went into Iraq. Can he now say "I was only fooling about that?' Further,considering the situation with Iran can Obama and/or America afford to appear weak?

BTW re McCrystal - a basic axiom of military service is there comes a time when you must accept a decision you disagree with, salute, say "yes sir" and do the best you can with what you have. The only mitigating factor I see for the General is that no one seems able to reach a decision.  

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Wed Oct 07, 2009 at 19:36:55 PM CDT

It's not about Obama Old Prosecutor (0.00 / 0)

It's about our Troops.

Tonight we honor the sacrifices of three soldiers who lost their lives in Afghanistan earlier this month, and one who lost his life in Iraq.
Captain Benjamin A. Sklaver of the 422nd Civil Affairs Battalion, based out of Greensboro, North Carolina, was serving his second tour of duty in Afghanistan.
Pfc. Alan H. Newton Jr., from Asheboro, North Carolina, was also assigned to the 422nd Civil Affairs Battalion.
Staff Sergeant Thomas D. Rabjohn was assigned to the 363rd Explosive Ordnance Detachment, out of Coolidge, Arizona.      
Spc. Paul E. Andersen, of Dowagiac, Michigan, was assigned to the 855th Quartermaster Company out of South Bend, Indiana.  

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Wed Oct 07, 2009 at 20:31:32 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Of course it is about the President (4.00 / 1)

Barak Obama holds two positions, President of the United States and Commander in Chief of the armed forces. As such to reinforce or withdraw is his decision and his alone and has been since January of this year. Any consideration that may affect his decision is and should be open to discussion.

His decision affects those troops you talk about. For example all 4 of those brave soldiers died on President Obama's watch.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Wed Oct 07, 2009 at 20:46:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Do you really want to go there OP? (0.00 / 0)

Do you really want to keep a tally of how many of our brave soldiers died on a Presidents "watch"?

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Thu Oct 08, 2009 at 08:52:24 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

As Usual (0.00 / 0)

you completely missed the point

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Thu Oct 08, 2009 at 10:21:18 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

What is your point? (0.00 / 0)

Other than hoping and wishing President Obama is a miserable failure like George W-ar Bush, what exactly is your point?

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Thu Oct 08, 2009 at 14:34:12 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Careful there (0.00 / 0)

I understand that heat is sometimes a byproduct of trying to shed light on a subject, but I think you're making a pretty broad assumption about OP's hopes and wishes.  While he is not as liberal as you or even as liberal as me, I don't recall a single time when he has indicated he either hopes or wishes  for President Obama to be a miserable failure.  That is a stupid position for anyone who lives in America to hold and OP is certainly not stupid.

Let's make an extra effort to keep the discussion civil, please.

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Thu Oct 08, 2009 at 15:34:47 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You and I can go round and round about whether or not OP (0.00 / 0)

has indicated he wishes for President Obama to be a miserable failure or if he is stupid or not but I choose not to.:)

My question to OP still stands.

What's your point OP?

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Thu Oct 08, 2009 at 15:38:52 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

My point, I actually have two points (4.00 / 2)

1 - We have reached a point where President Obama must make a decision. At the time this discussion began he had IMHO two choices (a) get out of Afghan entirely or (b) increase force levels there. Many on here, including you Redeye, were urging the "get out option". I was pointing out that choosing that option would be very difficult/impossible in view of his campaign positions and the situation with Iran.

Since the discussion began the White House has announced withdrawing is not an option. Well, neither is maintaining the status quo, so the only thing left to do is increase troop levels. Whatever Pres Obama does, he needs to make a decision quickly.

2 - My second point is that with great power comes great responsibility. One power a President has is to send our troops to fight and die. When a President decides to commit our troops, or allow them to remain in combat, he is responsible for the deaths that occur as a result of that decision. That does not mean the decision is wrong.

A Democrat President named Harry Truman had two signs on his desk "The buck stops here" and "if you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen".

Bush is responsible for all the deaths among our troops from the beginning of the Afghan War until Obama took office. Obama is responsible for all the deaths since he took office.

I grow extremely weary of politicans and their supporters who want great power but then try it avoid responsibility for the exercise of that power.I suggest they remember the sayings of Harry Truman.

BTW, thanks Mooncat for the defense but I have long ago accepted that Redeye is so dogmatic that if you disagree with him/her, you will get the cheap personal attacks. In that respect Redeye has a lot in common with Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Thu Oct 08, 2009 at 21:33:55 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

What does Afghanistan look like, when we start the withdrawal? (0.00 / 0)

What does a peaceful Afghanistan look like?  Or maybe more specifically, what does an Afghanistan that we would be comfortable withdrawing from look like?

If we can figure out what the end state is, maybe we can figure out how to get to it.  If we can't figure out what the end state looks like, we'll never figure out how to get to it.

In the immortal words of Pink Floyd:"If you haven't eaten your meat, you cannot have any pudding!! How can you have any pudding if you haven't eaten your meat??!!"

"The War in Iraq is not the disease. The War in Iraq is a symptom. Arrogance is the disease" - Bill Richardson

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by: herding old cats @ Thu Oct 08, 2009 at 22:23:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Good Point HOC (0.00 / 0)

Like Iraq, we have to decide what must exist prior to withdrawal. A stable government, the defeat or banishment of Al Quadea, Whatever the benchmark that may be, it must be decided on. The fact that Pakistan is also unstable and is a nuclear power must be factored in.

In the meantime can we hang the troops we have there out to dry without giving them the reinforcements they say they need?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 07:36:03 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

No OP (0.00 / 0)

We can bring out Troops home not send more.

The purpose of our military is to protect and defend America from all enemies foreign and domestice.  Our troops are not trained or equip to nation build.

Dipolomacy is what is needed,not warfare.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 10:13:06 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Redeye (0.00 / 0)

President Obama has stated that bringing our troops home is not an option.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 15:24:19 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

OP (0.00 / 0)

George W-ar Bush said he had proof of tons and tons of WMD in Iraq and Saddam was about to use them on us.

President Obama said the U.S. cannot police the world.  The American people say it's time to bring our troops home.

President Obama says we need comprehensive health care reform too.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 15:42:02 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

You lost me Redeye (0.00 / 0)

How is anything in your post remotely related to what I posted. When the President says withdrawal is not an option, am I supposed to assume he is lying?

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 20:57:05 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Did you assume George W-ar Bush was lying when (0.00 / 0)

he said he had proof of tons and tons of WMD in Iraq and Saddam was about to use them on us?

Did you assume George W-ar Bush was lying when he said he was going to get Osama dead or alive?

Did you assume George W-ar Bush was lying when he dressed up like Top Goon and said Mission Accomplished in Iraq?

Did you assume George W-ar Bush was lying when he said the tax cut for the rich was going to create millions of new jobs?

BTW, show me where President Obama said withdrawal is not an option.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 22:35:18 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Try staying up with the news (0.00 / 0)

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Sat Oct 10, 2009 at 22:32:23 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Here you go (0.00 / 0)

 President Obama won't commit to sending more troops to Afghanistan, but neither will he withdraw any, he told congressional leaders in a White House meeting today that included a sharp exchange between the president and Republican Sen. John McCain. Obama wanted to "dispense with the straw man argument that this is about either doubling down or leaving Afghanistan," sources tell the New York Times.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Sat Oct 10, 2009 at 22:34:33 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Here you go (0.00 / 0)

 President Obama won't commit to sending more troops to Afghanistan, but neither will he withdraw any, he told congressional leaders in a White House meeting today that included a sharp exchange between the president and Republican Sen. John McCain. Obama wanted to "dispense with the straw man argument that this is about either doubling down or leaving Afghanistan," sources tell the New York Times.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Sat Oct 10, 2009 at 22:34:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

"Sources tell the New York Times"? (0.00 / 0)

Huh?

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Sun Oct 11, 2009 at 09:46:15 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Here you go (0.00 / 0)

 President Obama won't commit to sending more troops to Afghanistan, but neither will he withdraw any, he told congressional leaders in a White House meeting today that included a sharp exchange between the president and Republican Sen. John McCain. Obama wanted to "dispense with the straw man argument that this is about either doubling down or leaving Afghanistan," sources tell the New York Times.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Sat Oct 10, 2009 at 22:34:58 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Key words (0.00 / 0)

Sources tell the New York Times

Obama wanted to "dispense with the straw man agrument that this is about either doubling down or leaving Afghanistan".

How does that translate into "Obama said leaving is not an option"?

We all know what is going on here.  President Obama believed he we would be allowed to govern after his election.  Being the honorable, decent American he is, he extended the right hand of friendship and reconciliation to the republicans and drew back a nub, wronly believing they loved their country more than they hated him.

The republicans, under the direction and leadership of Rush Limpballs are obstructing President Obama's agenda so they can say "he didn't keep his campaign promise(s)" or ask "Is President Obama in a box".

Let's dispense with the strawman arguments, the obstruction and the petty bickering and pull our country out of the ditch.

I'm begging you.

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Sun Oct 11, 2009 at 09:57:08 AM CDT

[ Parent ]

Redeye (0.00 / 0)

Neither I or anyone else made the statements about Afghanistan - President Obama did.

His press secretary made this one
I don't think we have the option to leave. That's quite clear," White House press secretary Robert Gibbs said in his daily briefing with reporters, two days after eight U.S. troops and two Afghan soldiers were killed during a firefight in a remote region of the country.

What is going on here is a President who is not what you belived him to be.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Sun Oct 11, 2009 at 19:21:37 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Au Contraire (0.00 / 0)

Who elected Robert Gibbs POTUS?

I'm still waiting for you to show me were President Obama said leaving Afghanistan was not an option.  

What's going on here is pure, partisian, political bull crap.  

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Sun Oct 11, 2009 at 19:57:09 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Last time I checked (0.00 / 0)

Gibbs was appointed by President Obama as HIS press secretary.

None are so blind as those who will not see.

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.
Edmund Burke

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by: Old Prosecutor @ Mon Oct 12, 2009 at 20:41:57 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

That's right (0.00 / 0)

Gibbs was appointed Press Secretary, not elected President.

Can you show me where President Obama, not the Press Secretary, said pulling out of Afghanistan was not an option?

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Mon Oct 12, 2009 at 20:46:27 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

I'm glad you choose not to. n/t (4.00 / 1)

Work harder and work smarter!

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by: mooncat @ Thu Oct 08, 2009 at 21:41:43 PM CDT

[ Parent ]

Cui Bono? :) (0.00 / 0)

The work goes on, the cause endures, the hope still lives and the dreams shall never die.~Senator Edward M. Kennedy (D. MA)

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by: Redeye @ Fri Oct 09, 2009 at 00:03:10 AM CDT

[ Parent ]